CFS "Yes" and "No" Panel on CFAX

The following is a transcript of Thursday's CFAX broadcast interviewing representatives of the "Yes" and "No" side in the UVic referendum on membership in the Canadian Federation of Students. Geoff Sharpe, a former UVSS candidate, represents the "No" side and CFS national chair Dave Molenhuis represents the "Yes" side. Dave Dickson moderates the panel.

Molenhuis in particular makes a few claims which should be addressed. The CFS does not include 600,000 members and had never made that claim before the defederation referendum at Guelph last year. Their previous claim had been 500,000 members, but this number dates from before the Simon Fraser Student Society voted to leave in 2008. Since then several other student unions have left and the number is now closer to 400,000.

Even if Molenhuis' number was accurate it's still nowhere near a "majority of students" in Canada, another of his assertions. According to the most recent Canadian census over 1,660,000 students attend colleges or universities.

Molenhuis also claims that if UVic students vote "No" to the referendum question on continued membership in the CFS, it would not change their memebrship in the CFS' BC component. This is completely false and has not been the case if any referenda on CFS membership. However, the Ontario wing of the CFS has a unique clause in its bylaws which actually does require two petitions and two referendum questions to leave CFS National and CFS Ontario. Molenhuis is from Ontario and apparently doesn't realize that CFS-BC bylaws are different from the Ontario ones.

The erroneous claim that the referendum only applies to the national wing of the CFS also seems to be behind the Referendum Oversight Committee's refusal to approve statements that UVic students pay a total of $240,000 per year in CFS membership fees. Half of those fees are directed to CFS National and half to CFS BC, and the CFS representatives on the ROC have apparently claimed that the correct figure to cite is the National component fee, not the total fee.



Part One: Geoff Sharpe, UVic student and "No" side representative

Dickson: Now talk a bit about his issue. how did it come about?

Sharpe: Well it's been a while in the making actually. Back in September of 2009 a group of students, myself included, got together and decided to start a petition to leave the Canadian Federation of Students. We got the required amount of signatures and then, funny enough, there was a petition called a counter petition that they used to circulate to strike the names off our petition. Now this was actually not within their bylaws–they weren't allowed to do this. This was done at a bunch of other schools that were trying to leave as well. They denied it based on that counter petiton, and the Student Society, earlier this year I believe, took the CFS to court to demand students' right to vote, and we finally got that, and we are here today. Next week students will be able to decide, on the 29 to 31.

Dickson: So back it up even further why is this something that you wanted to get together and leave the CFS, what precipitated this?

Sharpe: I think there's a number of reasons why the students got together and decided this, the CFS has a history of certain issues which a lot people find very disconcerting. The fact that it's extremely difficult to leave the organization–they consistently have an issue of not allowing students to leave after they have voted to leave. Within the past five years alone eight schools have voted to leave. Only one has been recognized, that was the UVic Grads actually, and they were the only ones that successfully left even though every student society has voted for it. So it's a very litigious organization, they actually go around and sue a lot of these student societies that actually vote to leave democratically. One of the other issues I think, its goal is to reduce tuition fees down to zero and as we can see that's really not happening. So we send about $240,000 to these guys every year, it's a six million dollar corporation and we decided it was just time to reevaluate our membership with this group, based on the fact that we aren't getting a lot of value for the money we spend.

Dickson: So it's about eight bucks student, correct?

Sharpe: Yeah, it's eight dollars and two cents per term, which doesn't sound like a lot, but over four years that's a million dollars.

Dickson: Well if you think about how many students are at the University of Victoria it does add up and they're a six million dollar corporation you said?

Sharpe: Maybe around eight, it's very difficult to find out how much money they take in, as n individual student I can't request their financial documents, I have to go through the student society which has to go through the another, either provincial or national group in order to get it, so its very difficult to find some of this information out.

Dickson: So only one group has been successful in leaving the CFS?

Sharpe: Yes, it's quite shocking, especially after many voted overwhelmingly to leave. SFU, the Simon Fraser Student Society actually is still in a legal battle with them from 2008 after they voted overwhelmingly to leave, and it's going to trial I believe in the next few years. So there's a lot of issues around with this group and its certainly not just us that are wanting to leave, lots of other student societies too.

Dickson: Well its interesting you talking about legal issues, gosh I couldn't imagine the legal fees on something like this, what the fees are going toward right now are more court costs than advocating for students?

Sharpe: Well, if you want a hard number, in 2009 $331,000 alone was spent on legal fees, and this is students' money, it isn't just the corporations' money. We pay for everything. So ironically enough we had to take them to court, and our fees were actually paying for their legal work. So its quite ironic in may ways.

Dickson: So what are the other options out there, Geoff, for students? I'm just trying to look to my days at the University of Victoria, there's the CFS and of course there's a provincial body within the CFS. Are there other unions out there, or would you have no representation at all?

Sharpe: Well no, I think that's a very good point, that's one of the major concerns that UVic students have–where would the representation be? A couple of points, I think the first one is where is the representation now? Government has done nothing for student lately, I mean there's a lot of issues with student loans and rising tuition fees, and arguably they're not listening to us right now. So we have to reevaluate and ask ourselves, is this an organization that is succeeding with our goals? Secondly, there is a new provincial group that currently is forming, it's with UBC, BCIT recently voted to get into it, it's quite exciting. This group will be forming with some of the biggest provincial universities around, funny enough, because the CFS doesn't actually have a united voice here in BC and as we all know education is a provincial issue. UBC, BCIT, SFU are not part of the CFS and many refuse to work with it, so it's impossible to say we already are effective because we're divided.

Dickson: So you said UBC, SFU and BCIT–three prominent post secondary schools–right now are not currently affiliated with the CFS.

Sharpe: No, we're actually the biggest school west of Ontario. University of Regina recently voted, there are still issues with that–it was actually eight months before they found out the results, that's a whole nother side story, but UVic is actually the only large student society that's involved with the CFS west of Ontario.

Dickson: So the CFS has a lot riding on it-and what did you say is the group representing those other organizations here in BC?

Sharpe: It's one that's being formed as we speak right now, I've been told about this by a number of people, I don't have all the details but BCIT recently voted to join it as well.

Dickson: How will you ensure that with this new group the cocnerns of students could be met?

Sharpe: Well, I'm not privy to all the details unfortunately, but my understanding is that the process for entering and leaving will be very easy and that's one of the major issues with the CFS–it's very difficult to leave. Student societies have to turn around and sue this organization, taking up years and years of time, tons and tons of student money which could be better spent on lobbying. The fact is that we have to go through this process to leave every time is just quite frankly disgusting.

Dickson: So what is the question coming up next week for UVic students, what is the referendum question specifically?

Sharpe: The question is whether we should continue membership with the Canadian Federation of Students, so I am one of the representatives on the "No" side.

Dickson: So what are your thoughts talking to students, what have you been hearing?

Sharpe: Well I think the stuff that I've heard from students has been overwhelmingly positive toward our side, no-one likes the fact that they're using our money to sue us. They also don't like the fact that CFS staffers are being flown out from across the country to come to our campus and tell us how to vote. Regina had around 40 people from off campus come and tell Regina students how to vote, and I think that students are smarter than that, they'll be able to know make the decision and know what's best for themselves.

Dickson: We know when it comes to elections, particularly when it comes to school elections, they don't usually garner a huge turnout. I'm just hearkening back to my days when it comes to voting for positions even within the UVSS, it doesn't exactly overwhelm pollsters. What about on this one, do you feel that there's enough interest that more students will vote, cause that's the big thing to get as many of them out there.

Sharpe: Oh absolutely. I think what it is is just on the ground work, talking to students, engaging with them, letting them know about the issues and just motivating them to get them to vote on this issue. I think the fact that it's an organization that we pay for, the fact that it's a litigious organization that has this history of major problems is really starting to resonate with students. And I hope that we will get the "No" side support up over the next few days.

Dickson: What does it take, is it 51% to 49%– is that all that's needed?

Sharpe: Well you'd think that was all that'[s needed, but based on history we're not done at the vote, if we do vote to leave most likely the CFS will sue us. It's what they do, it's how they run their business. It's unfortunate especially when students vote overwhelmingly to leave, but hopefully the Student Society will respect the vote of the students and carry on the lawsuit quite frankly when it happens.

Dickson: Wwhat is the stance of the UVSS? Do they have to take a neutral one?

Sharpe: Well, actually the UVSS has come out and endorsed the no side, which is certainly disconcerting for some people, but I think it sends a strong message to the students that the people that we voted in have looked at the facts and weighed the decision and come to the conclusion that the CFS is not what UVic needs.

Dickson: So looking at this right now, if UVic was to go, could this spell the end of the CFS? If UVic is the biggest institution west of Ontario that has the CFS representing it?

Sharpe: Well I think the CFS has been on the decline for a number of years. Over the past few years tons of student societies have tried to leave, again they're still stuck in it through how litigious it is. You may be right, I don't want to speculate on that, I just want to focus on how UVic will do, because essentially that's what we're here for, we're here for the University of Victoria Student Society, UVic, and hopefully students will make an informed decision.

Dickson: So Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday students will have an opportunity to vote on this, but it will be a long time before the dust settles so to speak.

Sharpe: Yeah, absolutely I fully expect them to contest the results even if it is overwhelming, the no vote.


Part Two: Dave Molehuis, CFS National Chairperson

Dickson: Now as mentioned of course your group based on Ottawa, but you're here at the University of Victoria right now talking to students, what are you hearing right now from students, cause I know this is obviously a critical issue for you?

Molenhuis: Well yeah, I've heard a lot of things, in fact I'm pretty overwhelmed with the support we've heard so far for continuing to remain members of the national student movement, so I'm pretty optimistic with that. I've heard so far, people are generally recognizing that yes, in fact it makes sense for us to continue to work with the over 600,000 members of the organization, that we've had a lot of successes in the past and we want to keep fighting for victories in the future.

Dickson: Now speaking to the "No" side previous to joining you right now, and a lot of their concerns are the difficulty it is for a student union like the UVSS to actually leave the CFS. why is it so difficult? Why do they have to go through such a huge process and potentially face a lawsuit?

Molenhuis: Now I take issue with a couple of things there, the fact of the matter is it's not difficult, it's a very straightforward process, and I think some of the information that was presented by the earlier guest was somewhat misleading. I think the process is very straightforward, it just requires students to petition the organization to hold a referendum in the first place and that's how it works. And so there was a bit of a dispute that arose that regrettably ended up in the courts, which of course is the right of the UVSS to resolve any disputes through the court system, and so unfortunately the judge did not–or I would say that unfortunately there was an issue there of another petition being submitted from those students who had originally asked for the referendum, saying they had been misled and they wanted their names removed. So the federation was just trying to hear out the concerns of those students, but that of course is all in the past and the fact of the matter is we're here now participating in a referendum. So, it's pretty straightforward, it just requires a petition, referenda have happened in the past, they'll happen in the future and it is the right of those members to hold them. So it's a bit disingenuous to say that it's not straightforward.

Dickson: so it is straightforward, the students will have a yes or no answer, whether or not to keep the CFS as their representative. And I know just talking to the no side, I think some of the other concerns that he expressed, and I know this is a big issue for the CFS, is to obviously reduce tution fees and help alleviate some of that debt load. Do you feel that the CFS has been able to make inroads there?

Molenhuis: well, absolutely, the federation on a number of fronts has been quite successful lobbying provincially and of course federally for increasing funding to post-secondary education. And one of the most substantial victories the student movement saw in recent memory was the creation of Canada's first system of grants which was created back in 2007. It's been up and running for a couple of years now, that's several hundred million dollars that wasn't there before in the hands of students, to make it easier for students to get through the front doors of colleges and universities. Now that didn't just appear out of thin air, the federation was the only organization asking for that particular system to be put in place, and effectively lobbied the Conservatives to put it in there.

Dickson: So we see those successes from the CFS' perspective when it comes to grants. But we still see some extemely high tuition fees, there's no doubt about it, and of course student debt load is getting higher. So what else can be done? How can we get those numbers down? What else should the CFS do?

Molehuis: So I think, it's a big problem, a lot of people are concerned about it, so it hink the way we're going to be successful in the future is by uniting with one anothr and by rolling up our sleeves trying to make the case for reduced tution fees in Canada. And the way to do that is through working together not through isolating ourselves. I mean, can you imagine how much more difficult it's going to be for the University of Victoria students to make the case in Ottawa for increasing core funding to post-secondary education when they're outside, they're not sitting at the table with all of the other students unions trying to advocate for these things? So if people are genuinely concerned with the increasing costs of post-secondary education, well I think we need to buckle down, discuss the best ways to try to reduce tuition fees and get more people involved in the organization, not try to isolate ourselves.

Dickson: Of course the CFS is a national organization and the previous guest was talking about how some of the prominent post-secondary schools in BC, such as UBC, SFU and BCIT, have actually gone another route and are in the works of possibly creating their own federation. Does the CFS best represent everybody when each province has so many different issues and needs?

Molenhuis: This is what we're trying to do here is find the common interest, so it's been an ongoing discussion on the west coast and the east coast. The best way to go about making the case for this, yes you did note there that the membership of the federation, although we're 600,000 students strong, doesn't represent, yes, absolutely every post-secondary student across the country. But the places we're most effective are places where we have 100% membership, like in Newfoundland and Labrador, and where a majority of students are involved in the organization, places like Manitoba, and certainly the majority of students are represented at the undergraduate and graduate level in Ontario. So I think this is proof positive of the fact that the idea is sound, working together works, it gets results and so although we don't represent absolutely everyone, we are working to do just that.

Dickson: So looking ahead to next week, if–and obviously it's too early to speculate, obviously you're feeling pretty good with your discussions, and my previous guest is feeling that students are fed up with the CFS and concerned about where their money is going, what is the next course of action if the "No" side is successful here? What can the CFS do?

Molenhuis: Well I mean, we'll continue to advocate for students regardless, making the case for reduced tuition fees, but I think it's a little bit disingenuous to not sit down with the majority of students in Canada and work out the best way to advocate for one another. So I mean, I'm pretty hopeful, the university of Victoria has been the backbone of the student movement in British Columbia and has played a substantial role in the student movement nationally as well. It would be a tragic loss for everyone, everyone would feel that, but again, the advocacy work would continue. This is a referendum on membership in the national organization, so the University of Victoria will continue to be sitting at the table provincially lobbying here at the legislature in Victoria. So that work will continue, but you know I think that's why people are interested in seeing this membership continue, because it doesn't really make sense to be a part of one and not the other. To be speaking to all levels of government with one united voice–so I'm pretty hopeful there will be a strong "yes" vote.

Dickson: But if it is the other side could there be legal action against the UVSS from the Canadian Federation of Students?

Molenhuis: No. The referendum is ongoing right now, we're here, we're participating, so I think we'll see, we'll await the results here.